Rob I received your PM and sent a reply.
Steven
This is the most meaningful post on this thread. Think about it.
cobrasc427…I am the owner of two 428 CJ GTEs in Henderson NV…what can I assist with? Thanks.
I am your former neighbor, looked at ALL of your cars, bought my GT-E in Salt Lake, you came over to my house shortly after I purchased it. I thought I had you in my rolodex , couldn’t find it, was wondering if they are still for sale, or are you restoring them finally?
I will send you a PM…thanks.
Someone gave me a heads up about this thread yesterday. I have known Rob for a long time and was at first surprised he had not contacted me after reading all of this. He was not aware of my past involvement. I was the person that acquired the Black car from long term ownership out of Michigan with a 302 transplant and also acquired the engine from the Red Mustangs Unlimited car after long term original ownership to make a pairing. It is clear now once again that I have the original story and am the only source of correct info as relayed from the original owner of the Red car, Wild Bill. I am going to call him and let him know the good news because he was sad to hear it was suspected as a rebody at the time I purchased the engine and then I told him last year it was a verified rebody. He may hang up on me after the roller coaster ride. This car was in fact verified a rebody by experts less than a year ago. Wild Bill and I discussed the taillights, dash and other odd items and he had an explanation which I shared both publicly and personally on the phone. This was all apparently disregarded in the equation. This Red car once owned by Mustangs Unlimited has been sold for less than its actual value a few times now and others have passed on making a purchase based on obviously unsubstantiated claims. I just hope Wild Bill is still kicking because he is a great man and I never doubted him for a minute. Love the cars and remember they always tell the real story 
Great ending to the story and a very deserving new owner.
Context for those that have been following this saga for years is in the attached thread here from the other forum.
Kerry Wortman
https://cccforum.discoursehosting.net/t/the-mustangs-unlimited-gte-is-back-for-sale/8440/1
All,
Kerry, who is a good friend of mine, contacted me yesterday and as you can see was part of the history of these two cars. He bought the missing motor to the Red GTE from the original owner of the Red GTE. He has attempted more than a few times to clear the air on the history of the Red GTE. He was told that a thorough inspection of the Red GTE was performed by a Cougar GTE expert and that the VIN’s did not match and that the car was a rebody. I have to say that nothing could be further from the truth. I question how thorough the inspection was. I took the liberty of typing the word “rebodied” into the search engine of this site. The Red GTE has been thoroughly bashed by this site.
I say this, and please take it for what it is, but as a member of this site your comments can be hugely hurtful to an owner and to the value of a Cougar. As a member of this site you are considered to be the experts on these cars and one day may be held liable for your comments. Just as much as someone falsely advertising a car for sale to increase its value. It is a two edged sword. I saw posts on the Mercury.net site with legal documents on the culpability of a seller mis-representing a car. At the same time maybe a family has a medical emergency such as a kidney replacement and needs to sell their beloved Cougar and unsubstantiated comments levied make it worth half as much. How sad would that be?
Please take no offense, but comments on authenticity of cars should be tempered and fully substantiated. Certainly red flags can be commented on but until a full hands on inspection is performed, the car should remain innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around.
Jim’s approach of marking a car as suspicious is sound. He does this to keep suspicious cars easy for him to see in the registry. But he also says that a buyer should have a full inspection performed before money changes hands. The job as registrar is thankless. One person cannot inspect every car in person. I have been asked numerous times to look at cars for buyers and do it for free.
Rob
Not to be a nudge, but was this assertion from Mr. P ever addressed?
The dash tag however has been removed and put back on with screws.
If its a unique car you have to get it looked at if you don’t know enough.
At the CJ reunion there was a 68 Mustang fastback for sale that sure looked the part of a 68.5 CJ car. Stripes, hood scoop, 4 speed, no console, and a big block with the correct air cleaner. Only the VIN had a J in it. I asked the owner if he tells perspective buyers its not real and he said he would never ‘tell them its real’. Spin.
Also visit Shelby forums and see the suspicions going on there even with parts.
8 - 9 years ago there was a dude in New England who built two GTEs. I saw one picture of both sitting together and they looked the part. If a buyer didn’t know about checking the VINs with Jim they had an expensive clone. The temptation can run high and push due diligence to the back.
Gary –
The question of whether the dash tag on '68s were installed at the factory with either rivets or screws is still an open question. We are researching this issue. I cannot find in the assembly manuals where it indicates the proper fasteners for the dash vin tag – it may be published somewhere, but if so I haven’t found it. I’m also checking with Kevin Marti, in case his knowledge of the production process may shed some further light. In the meantime it seems only fair that “either” method be considered correct, at least until objective evidence is found that refutes that fact. The Master Record on Bart’s car only reflects an FYI note indicating that the tag is attached with screws, no indication that there is anything necessarily wrong with that.
Hope this helps.
Jim
FWIW, a number of 1968 cars have been found with either 1 or 2 screws holding the VIN in place. Sportyworty AKA Kerry has documented several. I have personally seen two, but did not take pictures as I did not at the time realize it might be important later (DOH!) In every case it appears that the same sort of screw was used. The NHTSA standard that the VIN be visible sunk or embossed did n’t really go into effect until January of 1969.
Thanks, Jim and Bill -
As long as we’re crossing t’s and dotting i’s…
I provided 5 examples of screwed tags of the 15 total in my file yesterday to Bill B and Phil P.( I can blank out part of the vin numbers and provide the additional 10. I specifically chose ones that I did not have to alter.) These two people are well respected in the Cougar community and were not affiliated with flagging the car. It was my intention to gain their objective opinion. I also referenced that I had this discussion with Jeff Speegle and that I keep Bob Gaines up to date with examples as found for my own back up knowing this would come some day. I also told Bill B and Phil P to share the examples with Jim and Royce leaving the discretion in there hands whether to go public. I have described the screw several times prior to receiving description or seeing anything physical to include the car in question as well as a new one just yesterday from a 428 Registry member. The fact that one little guy can document that many and the fact they are the same screw each and every time is quality evidence it happened on the line period. Just imagine how many there must be. The quote above from Jim P specifically states removed and put back on which in itself is what scares us all ! no one wants to see screws in the first place or think perhaps the tag has been removed or . The words removed and attached are different and require a completely different inspection, your quote. So the screws have been witnessed before as admitted by Royce today and Bill and Phil yesterday. Now just today Jim P sees the screws for the first time on a car other than the one in question and it turns out his very own GTE car has screws as well. Guess what Jim !!! so does my Car !!! we really do have something in common after all. Guess what I have a lot of people’s vins as well and they think they are legit as well. I know I am not popular with you but it is misdirected. It’s about the CARS and everyone here has busted there hump learning them and I respect each and every one including you. Mistakes were made and the fact over 300 people have read this thread since my last thread says people want to see a conclusion as well. I brought these screws up once before on the Concours Forum back in 2014. It was at this point I was asked to take it off line and I started the file and correspondence with Bob G. The only way to verify a 68 Cougar prior to April CJ reinforcements is by the fender vins period everything else is bolt on. It is clear now the “removed and put back on” tag and fender apron vins misread were the deciding red flags added to the already presumed rebody tied to this cars reputation. Enough experts have looked at this ordeal not sure we need more involvement the car has spoken. Why would the car have a Red Flag for even another day?
Way to go Bart you get the car and the engine together once again. We should all be happy about that I hope. I may have a few chinks in the armor though ha !
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=9048.msg53002#msg53002
Kerry –
Hold the phone here coach – this car has not had “a flag” in the Registry or the Master Record since Rob and Bart photographed the sheet metal date codes and the apron vin numbers etc. to remove the open questions concerning the car.
Next you indicate that you are “not popular with you”, meaning me as I read it, and that’s simply not even close to being true. I have nothing but the highest respect for you and what you do for the car hobby. Not sure what gave you that idea, but I want to disabuse you of such a notion.
Next, of course comes the current discussion about dash vin tags. There are sufficient known cases, including the ones you have documented, to cause the assumption for rivets, to be refuted by evidence that we would all accept. And while it was federal law that the dash vin tags be “permanently attached” (e.g. rivets, welding, etc.) screws were not in compliance with the law. Obviously the factory workers did not always, maybe even mostly, comply given what we’ve found.
So to set the record straight, as far as the GT-E Registry and the Master Record is concerned, either rivets or screws are considered correct and not a cause for any presumption of the car being rebodied.
I hope this helps settle the matter in so far as the GT-E Registry is concerned. And, Kerry, if there are open questions concerning our interactions and ongoing relationship please do not hesitate to ask, question, call me or whatever in your opinion will help resolve the issue(s).
Best regards,
Jim
Thanks for the response Jim it is respected and appreciated. I feel the fact that I was not asked to reiterate the story told to me by the original owner of the car to you was either dismissive or poor research frankly. The fact that so many people were involved with trying to verify the car as evidenced by the chain mails shared with me says my input was not factored or invited. Perhaps even a call back to Wild Bill would garner something but no one asked. You also excluded me from emails today which I sent none because I do not do group emails/think. These cars were built on the line with Mustangs and I feel you could have reached out and asked more questions. I prefer to keep all of the discussion transparent with regards to this car including my interpretation of our standing together which is great then going forward sir sincerely.
For the record I have checked the status of the car yesterday and again today and each day was told it was still flagged. Thus the reason for my posts today. When I learned of the accident that Bart had and the modifications the car would require to get him rolling I thought man could this guy use a friend that could help. Thanks Rob for introducing us and I look forward to meeting you all and Jim because guess what we are moving to Washington ha !
Kerry –
Thanks for the response in our discussion of these issues.
First, I was not attempting (until today) to determine the accuracy of the assumption that the dash tag was riveted from the factory. As far as I was concerned the fact that it was required by law was definitive. So much so, that if I were restoring a '68 Cougar today and it had a screwed in dash tag
and it was within the restoration project logistics, I would change the screws to rivets (which accordingly could not be wrong in any context).
None of your imput on any Cougar-related subject would ever be rejected by me out of hand. I knew it was an “open question” concerning the dash tags, but as I said I didn’t know I had a dog in that fight until recently folks thinking that as a Registrar I needed to have an opinion, other than the legal requirement one that required “riveting or welding”.
Okay, moving on. We all know how easy it is for this forum stuff, and other laughingly called social media, can be misconstrued. I sincerely apologize for anything I have said or done to contribute to that confusion or misunderstanding.
Jim
I have parted out quite a few Cougars over the past 35 years and I do not recall ever having one with screws holding the VIN tag to the dash. Of course back in the early days I doubt that I would have paid much attention to screws even if they were there. So I do have a few questions about these cars with screws holding the VIN tag in place.
Were they all Dearborn cars? San Jose cars? Both? Were the VIN numbers early? Late? Grouped close together? No, I am not asking anyone to provide actual VINs, just the general information. Since Mustangs were built on the same line are there known Mustangs with screwed on VIN tags? What about Mustangs, or any other Ford products of the time, from other manufacturing plants with screwed on VIN tags? For the specific cars that have been found with screwed on VIN tags do we know the complete history of those cars? Or is it possible that at some point in time a previous owner replaced the original rivots with the screws? Basically I am asking what does anyone have that can prove any given car left the factory with screws holding the VIN tag to the dash? I am not saying you are wrong, just asking questions.
Randy Goodling
CCOA #95
One thing that is being missed is that rule 115 of the NHTSA standard did not become effective until January 1st of 1969. By that time all of the ‘68 Cougars had been built. If some one can find the original rule 115 we can see if it dictated how the tags were to be installed. I don’t know that it included language to define the specifics of the process. The location of the tag was defined and it was described as being "sunk’ or “embossed” I don’t think the specialized font and rivets became a thing until at least 1969.
I have also parted out a good number of Cougars. I recall one having screws holding the dash VIN plate on. But I can nor recall much else at this time other then the number on the dash tag matched the fender aprons and the door tag. I have only parted out 3 or 4 68s. The last one I did not get that far apart before I sold the caucus to WCCC.
Jim P. had a long talk with Kevin Marti today and it supports exactly what Bill says above. It was dictated by the federal government to affix the VIN plate in a permanent way but not really adopted in its entirety by the auto manufacturers until 1969. 1968 has been proven to be a “transition” year and there is solid evidence that the VIN’s were attached with screws vice rivets from the factory. Evidence provided by Kerry “Sportyworty” and concurred and supported by other Forum experts in the Ford World. This was a new anomaly to me, a local Ford nut and nothing more, and must be factored in when authenticating 1968 Ford cars.
Rob